Update February 12: It is interesting to me that the DWP hasn’t answered my questions or returned my call on this. You’ll see in the comments that people do indeed have their housing benefit stopped sometimes when they’re sanctioned and that they should ask to have HB restarted if that happens. Unfortunately, the jobcentre I refer to below sends new JSA claimants out believing that a housing benefit sanction is part of a JSA sanction and that’s that. DWP needs to address this. We’ve got a situation here where a jobcentre adviser told a large group of JSA claimants that their housing benefit would be sanctioned for two weeks as part of a JSA sanction and gave a lot of detail. I know too many people who would not challenge that, or know to ask to challenge it. I must say that I’m wondering why the DWP won’t address this, or even discuss it.
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Original post:
Feel free to feed back on this. I can’t work out what is going on:
A few weeks ago, I attended a group induction meeting for new JSA claimants at one of the north west London jobcentres.
About 20 minutes into the session, the jobcentre adviser running the meeting told the 12 new JSA claimants there something that intrigued me. He said that people’s housing benefit and council tax benefit would be stopped for two weeks (he used the word disallowed) if people got a four-week JSA sanction and that they would have to cover their rent and council tax. This confused me. As I understand it, housing benefit and council tax benefit are sometimes stopped with a JSA sanction when councils are advised of the sanction, but that those claims should be restarted and can even be backdated to the time the JSA sanction began (which surely means you’re entitled during the course of a sanction). Any sort of formal disallowance process – with no mention of restart – would surely be another story. Certainly, mention of such a thing worried the hell out of people at that group meeting. Losing your housing benefit would, after all, put you on the fast track to homelessness. I’ve spoken to several welfare rights and housing people about this now and they agree that housing benefit and council tax benefit should not be formally sanctioned as part of a JSA sanction. So it is all very weird.
As luck would have it, I have a recording of the event in question. Here it is:
And here’s a transcript of that recording (have put the relevant sentences in bold type):
“Now, as I was saying, if you are on one of our courses and you either don’t bother to attend that course, or if you are removed from it by your own actions, those things and the other things that I mentioned, if you can remember, could cost you four weeks’ jobseekers’ allowance. When you have your signing on appointments, things are slightly different… if we don’t think that you have applied for as many jobs as you could have, if you don’t provide sufficient detail on the jobs you have applied for, or if you do nothing at all, not only do you run the risk of losing four weeks’ jobseekers’ allowance, there is also a two-week disallowance of other benefits you are receiving. The only exception being child benefit. Now, most people who claim jobseekers’ allowance are also claiming housing benefit and council tax benefit as well. The disallowance means that you would be liable to cover your rent and your council tax costs for two weeks, as well as losing four weeks’ jobseekers’ allowance. Now, these sanctions have been in place for over two years. If it’s never affected you, you may never have known any of this. I’m just giving you the worst case scenarios.”
Okay. The are several possibilities here. One is that the adviser was wrong. Another is that the adviser was right (and let’s face it – he sounded pretty well-versed. People who run these induction courses know what they’re saying and the messages they’re sending, more to the point). Is it possible to misconstrue what the adviser said, or the message being sent here? – if it is, I’m sure someone will put us right. I certainly don’t mind saying that I’m confused.
If anyone can shed any light on things, please do. As I say, people left that meeting very much under the impression that there would be a two-week and non-challengeable loss of housing benefit and council tax benefit if they were sanctioned. If that is not the case, they certainly should be told and some sort of clarifying statement made for everyone, including jobcentre advisors who run induction sessions (I have asked the DWP for such a statement. They generally never get back to me these days, but who knows. Perhaps this post will motivate them). There was certainly no mention of the ways to restart housing benefit if it stopped when you got a JSA sanction, or any indication that asking for backdated housing benefit payments to the start date of a sanction was a possibility – ie, the things people can do when their housing benefit is stopped because of a JSA sanction. It was just the usual “you can kiss all your money goodbye.”
Which is par for the course at jobcentres, I must say. You hear an awful lot about the ways you can lose your benefits. You hear a lot less about the ways that you can get them back. You also hear a lot of confusing, worrying things about the hits you’ll take if you’re sanctioned and the benefits that will be affected. This stuff is done far too casually. It needs a serious sorting out.
Firstly, Great recording …well done!
The man in your recording is talking out of Iain Duncan Smith’s R’ce! He is clearly using fear to intimidate and harass claimants by making unauthorised claims that have no legal basis.
Wow, over zealous, or clear blue sky thinking (Out loud)
What he (they) are saying is absolutely correct. I was sanctioned in October after being punished for what is basically a technicality. (I applied for 20+ jobs that fortnight, more than what is expected of me, but because I never “spread” out my Job search over 14 days – sanction time!)
As has been stated, it meant that both my HB & CTB were cut off as well as loss of benefit. (Right before Xmas, oh the joy!)
I’ve now had to go NFA (no fixed abode) from my flat of 10+ years because of the extra debts and the bailiffs/enforcement teams. (Who call me 4-5 times a day, EVERY day)
That is Harassment
I have been sanctioned three times and my HB and CT have been paid. Albeit after having to go through the rigmarole of having to tell them why my JSA had been stopped.
@Glen
Something they never told me for 4 weeks! By then the ball was rolling though (I was already struggling to keep up with a payment plan they had arranged)
The short answer is he is right to say HB may be affected, but wrong to say ‘you will have to cover those two weeks’. The HB should eventually be paid, but it might be disrupted.
There are no sanctions of HB. However, councils like to suspend it if someone comes off JSA (as the claimant might have got a job.)
The distinction between disallowance and sanction is arcane, and really only of historical importance. Previously, a failure to actively seek work resulted only in a disallowance – the claimant could immediately reclaim JSA. This has now been changed to include a four week sanction as well. However, the notification system to councils (for no good reason) still reports this as the end of JSA.
As long as the claimant keeps the council informed of their income, they are entitled to housing benefit throughout. Either sanctioned JSA, or zero income, allows entitlement to HB.
This is outrageous!!!! Yet again the people that need the help the most are the ones to suffer the most. While politicians get big wages and still claim expenses, Westminster is using this to claw back cash as they will NOT force many big companies as well as rich individuals to pay their proper taxes. As they will give mps jobs after they lose their seats. This sanctioning is wrong, I work and so does my wife and she also suffers from parkinsons so if we ended up jobless I dread to think!!!!
Ask him to provide a signed statement to that effect.
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Yes, I saw your post and heard the recording. It might be better if he can clarify his statement in writing with reference to the legislation because it is nothing more than fear-mongering disinformation. It is quite sadistic.
I was sanctioned a couple of years ago and my Housing Benefit was unaffected. the reason for this was that, I was working part time (less than 16 hours) and had changed my Housing Benefit from benefit based to income based. To the best of my knowledge it still is income based.
This may be why some people are effected and some not. If you were already on HB before going on JSA, your HB is income base. Therefor, any loss of JSA would not effect you HB because it wasn’t dependent on it to start with.
I am more concerned by the sentence above
“if we don’t think that you have applied for as many jobs as you could have, if you don’t provide sufficient detail on the jobs you have applied for, or if you do nothing at all”
“Could have” and “sufficient detail” are both ambiguous and open to interpretation. I am currently on ESA due to depression. I have suffered from clinical depression for most of my life. I will be attending a WCA soon and I know they will find me fit for work, they always do.
So, i’ll be back on JSA again. During the time I’ve been on ESA, things have changed a lot. I have tried to keep up with these changes and I don’t like what I’m seeing.
If I can’t find a job before getting kicked of ESA , at my age (57) there’s not much chance of that happening, I’m going to get sanctioned very quickly and more than once. A life time of clinical depression has greatly reduced my mental ability. I’m simply not going to be able to apply for enough jobs or spend enough time to satisfy any “ADVISER” (in my opinion the worst use of the word ever) so I’m going to get sanctioned.
I may even end up being one more of IDS’ ultimate victims.
you need some advice. there are a few options, go to Benefits and Work to find a good array. wish you all the best.
Just one observation, can we stop using the term “JobCentre” as they are nothing of the sort so I suggest “JobSanction Plus” as that is more intune with there aim.
Yes, as you say, confused stuff from the Sanctioncentre Plus. And I quite agree with what you say about Jobcentres doing very little now to actually help their clients get a job. It’s just threats,warnings and sanctions. A place of fear,not a place that you want to be at to help you get a job. Interesting to see that voluntary organisations have been setting up alternative job seeking centres where all vacancies and training places are advertised with staff there to help and direct searches. A far cry from what the government jobcentres have become.
Sounds like what we had before 1995, when Jobcentres only dealt with vacancies. All benefits administration was done by DSS or was it DHSS, could have been both at different times.
Housing Benefit is still a totally means-tested benefit and determined only by income and not conditional on anything else. Theoretically, should not be affected by a sanction. However, most HB offices will take the suspension of a claim to mean that the claimant may be working and their income can’t be determined.
As far as I know, to avoid a cut-off in hb, claimants need to file a declaration of NIL income with the hb office as soon as they’re sanctioned and the payment should be backdated.
JSSA advice should have more details on this.
Here’s the link:
https://jobseekersanctionadvice.com/sanction-survival-advice/
Sanctioned last Sep, overturned on Mandatory Reconsideration: HB & CTB entitlement covered for all of sanction period by declaring zero-income to HB office. Not 100% certain if this is correct whether sanction is overturned or not, but zero-income seems self-explanatory…then again, we`re talking about bureaucrats. Another way to cause stress for claimants
I cant understand why the civil service and front line, is carrying out these unfair, in just rulings and cuts by the government.. I know I wouldn’t. Don’t they have a conscience, Apparently not, where the public’s protection from dolts in power?..
My son was sanctioned for 6 months, his hb and c/tax ben were all stopped. Reason why he was sanctioned, because he didnt sign on, on correct day and time, but the problem was that the job centre had sent him for an interview at an agency at the time and day he was due to sign on. He asked the day b4 what about my signing i can’t be in 2 places at once, he was told come in on the next morning for 10am which he did and was told the above and sanctioned. He’s now in debt with housing group and wasnt even told about hardship payments that he could of applied for for last 6 months until 3 weeks ago. I would like all these so called bosses of employment centres to try living on jsa or hardship payments for 1 month, and see if they can still heat properties, buy, cook and eat warm food, travel to appointments & interviews at job centres, pay all other basic necessary bills (water, gas, electric). Bet they couldnt survive or would find it extremly hard, plus go out look for work have to pay out for travel to go to libraries just to use computers cause they want u to do it all by computers. They get worse and no wonder people get upset or angry.
the thing is, there are few staff in any of these places any more. taxpayer money is spent sending people to private agencies for ‘how to’ ‘courses’ and other essentially useless activities. trying to make so much happen ‘online’ means many people are unable to do so. advice is to find a way to…or sanctions. and if you do have access to the internet, you must have too much money, so you could be sanctioned and investigated, and can’t get that back. it is clear the intention is to kill off the ‘useless’. wonder how those who lost their dwp/jobcentre/dss/local authority, etc. jobs are getting along. not to mention every other service of import to the country, nhs, fire, police, ambulance, education, caring… it must be stopped.
and so on jobs are getting along now.
sorry for half a sentence at end of previous comment.
rockchick1970
that is terrible and i realy feel for you.but why the hell didnt you apeal that decision.there is no way they should of got away with that.under no circumstances.i do sometimes feel people let themselves get walked all over by them.you have to stand up to these idiots sometimes if the sanction is clearly wrong and over something ridiculous,which it quite often is.when i was on jsa they tried to sanction me over a couple of ridiculous things,and i stood up to them and appealed it each time,and won.most of them are nothing more then bullies down there,makes me so angry when i hear stories like this.i had to reply,and im just an average female very nice patient person usualy.anyway i feel for you,stand up to them in the future,and i would still consider appealing against that,take care.
I have another question.
When sanctioned off benefit, will you also be losing National Insurance credits towards your NI record history?
If your wages are below the lower earnings limit and you do not pay National Insurance, nor does your employer, are you also losing National Insurance credits on any in-work top up benefits?
If you are low waged / low income self employed are you then gaining no NI record history, either from contributions paid or credits accrued?
You are correct. If you have no employer and are not / no longer claiming jsa, esa or universal credit, then you will not be accruing any N.I entitlement while the situation continues. And bear in mind that if you wish to make voluntary contributions to fill-in any gaps retrospectively, the price of them goes up annually.
As far as I am aware (I advise people on benefit rules as part of my job so have access to all the relevant rules and guidance), this advisor was talking rubbish. Your Housing Benefit and Council Tax reduction can stop if the council are notified by DWP of a change of circumstances, like a sanction or your JSA claim being closed altogether. All you have to do is contact the council and declare your income. If it’s zero, fill out a ‘nil income’ form at the council. If you got a sanction, declare whether you are receiving hardship payments, how much your income is after the sanction deduction etc. As long as you are receiving less than your ‘personal allowance’ plus £5, which is currently £57.35 + £5pw for under 25 year-olds, and £72.40 + £5pw for 25-65 year-olds, then you are entitled to full Housing Benefit. I have never heard of a ‘disallowance’ of Housing Benefit.
Basically, I would say ALYWAYS SEEK PROFESSIONAL ADVICE i.e. from Citizen’s Advice Bureau, around any benefit issue. Often the jobcentre staff don’t know the rules themselves, don’t give proper advice, and are under pressure to sanction people. Never accept what they say as given – always seek independent advice from a professional advice agency. A lot of the problems I’ve read in the comments here could have been avoided if the people had sought independent advice. If you are applying for a new benefit, get turned down for a benefit, or get sanctioned, GET ADVICE!!! Very often the jobcentre makes wrong decisions and you have the right to challenge their decisions, but the rules are complex so get help from CAB or a similar organisation. If you heard that this or that happened to your friend, don’t assume that the same does or will apply to you. Each case is individual and you should always go to a professional who knows the benefit rules and what your rights are in your unique situation.
And that’s the problem and the reason why it is important to keep talking about the sorts of things that people who are handing out the advice come out with in jobcentres. People say all the time that it can be really, really difficult to get help at a CAB now. People can actually get quite angry when you suggest they try a CAB – they talk about not having calls answered, not being able to get appointments etc. You’re absolutely right in that people should have that support and should ask for it. The problem is the reality of getting it. And it’s appalling that they have to seek out CAB advice to get verification of policy that they’re bullied with in jobcentres. Jobcentres are supposed to offer impartial, accurate advice, not threaten people with a very detailed description of an all-round sanction that a lot of people will take to be fact. This whole things amazes me and I think it needs to go further. If people heard this guy talk at that induction meeting – and I can only imagine he’s run other sessions as well – they would be under the impression that their housing benefit would be sanctioned if their JSA was. If that happened and their HB stopped for the reasons you describe, they might not challenge it and might not even be aware that they could. Arrears follow quickly after that. It amazes me, some of the things that I hear in these places. People are placed in a situation where they’ll be quickly threatened with homelessness and the very people who are supposed to be advising and supporting them are making them think that that is policy. I wish someone would do something about this. Where’s the PCS for god’s sake.
Better to get a lawyer and sue the DWP ,a good lawyer will study the relevant laws and probably find a loophole ,if the jobcentre give you wrong advice then they should be held responsible.
http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/dwp-housing-benefit-will-be-sanctioned/7002330.article
Article from February 2014 – Under the new Universal Credit regime sanctions will be applied to HB also with implications for CTB. The government seem to think that by removing a person’s very basic support infrastructure and only means of subsistence, then this will move them closer to employment. This is plainly not based on any kind of evidence based research – it isn’t even based on any kind of common sense, let alone any kind of basic decency – rather it’s based on the Conservatives’ ‘spanish inquisition’ approach to work and welfare.
” A DWP spokesperson said: ‘It is only right that people claiming benefits should be aware that not sticking to the rules can have a consequence. Any reductions to benefits as a result of a sanction are applied to the universal credit benefit as a whole rather than a particular element of it.’ “
Since October 2013, the island of Jersey’s sanctions regime definitely stops all means-tested benefit entitlement to every member of the household – including housing benefit for tenants and any benefits payable in respect of children when a third breach of a warning is reached. Worse still, the entire household loses entitlement to ‘Special Payments’ (i.e. hardship payments) and the claim is CLOSED. This is supposed to last 6 weeks according to the legislation, but in fact can last INDEFINITELY because the sanctioned jobseeker also has to complete 6 weeks of rigorous actively seeking employment requirements before the household is even permitted to begin the process of making a fresh claim, which itself can take more than a month to complete.
Presuming the sanctioned jobseeker manages to complete 6 weeks ASE by the time the official 6-week stoppage of benefit ends, then further presuming the household somehow manages to complete a fresh application form and supply all information within a day or two, then further presuming that the claim reopening procedure was completed in 4 weeks, the household would be without any benefits for 10 weeks. During that time, the household’s only way of receiving any money would be to apply directly to the Minister for a payment due to ‘exceptional circumstances’, which can’t be appealed and for which there is no application form. The household isn’t even informed of this hardship payment option in the sanction notice.
Out of 107 households that had their Jersey benefit claims closed up to the end of 2014, less than a quarter (24 households) managed to get payments re-started within 8 weeks of the closure of their claim. A further 11 claims were reopened within 9-16 weeks and another 10 claims took 17 weeks or longer to reopen. That leaves 56 claims out of 107 where the claim has simply remained closed and nothing is known about the circumstances of these 56 households – whether they have gained employment or are still unemployed.
Jersey’s government insists that all this is human rights compliant!
Hi there I’m a BBC journalist and I’ll be moving to Jersey soon. I’m currently conducting some research into the benefits system and was wondering if you’d mind having a brief chat with me about it? I’m on rachael.thorn@bbc.co.uk. Thanks very much.
It should be challenged in court,
the numbers are all 0345 numbers so no calling the jobcenter. they dont tell housing all the time. i work part time and work on my signing day, as i miss signing on tho i work. it has ended up me getting my claim stopped…. they said its my fault. they wont change my signing days. just always my fault…….. you people need to understand one thing… the jobcenter is now the benifit agentcy. not the jobcenter.. all the staff who joined up 20-10 years ago were helping people. now they find them selves doing a job that isnt job hunting…. i mean who has actully seen a jobcenter theses days? do they actully still advertize jobs lol
no they don’t they have what is called job points and when you hand over your signing on book they tell you to look on the job points for work, it doesn’t matter if you spent hours going through looking for jobs on agency sites as well as UJM they expect you to look on them. I used to stand next to them and not look a few times they threatened sanctions and every time I told them I would put in a request for all the jobs available for a disabled person with my medical conditions and list of tablets with side effects affecting me, they never sanctioned me but I would have carried though with asking for the complete list of jobs and telephone numbers then checking them for agencies as you can tell agency numbers because because you get the same number coming up again and again or company confidential which might mean they advertised through an agency, although some are high paid jobs and they don’t wish the competitors to know they have a vacancy.
sorry for typos lol tis very late 🙁
should i tell my landlord if i am sanctioned
or should i write to them to say i have been sanctioned
They stopped my housing and council tax benefit when I got my PIP award when I finally got a copy of the communication the DWP had sent the council by email it simply said there had been a change in my benefits and nothing more but just getting that out the council was trouble enough as I sign all emails to the DWP and council in a handwriting font and electronic communication signatures they were unwilling to accept until I told them I required a NIL income form and that I would be taking them to court and producing one line that said signatures on emails should be accepted as electronic communication is now a common method of contact