Below is another transcript from an interview made at Oldham foodbank on 5 December.
I post this as an example of the lives that people without money must lead when they’re trying to get things together (after prison in this case).
This interview is also an example of somebody who has decided to put distance between himself and the jobcentre as he re-organises his life. I find this a lot. People sign on at jobcentres, because they need the money (such as it is), but that’s the sole reason they attend. They don’t expect support, or help to rebuild from jobcentres and the DWP. They expect aggro and a lot of cat and mouse around sanctions. No more and no less. That’s it.
This interview was with Terry, 43.
Terry was an ex-heroin and crack addict who’d recently done time in Risley for burglary. He said that he’d been in and out of jail since he was a teenager – mainly for robberies which paid for his habit. Terry said that he’d cleaned up in jail and hadn’t used for a couple of years.
Terry had a small flat in the Spring Street hostel in Oldham. He also had casual work as a labourer across sites in Greater Manchester. He was meeting a friend the next day who had a day’s work for Terry at another site.
That was the good news.
The not-so-good news was the number of obstacles that Terry faced getting to these jobs.
A charity had paid for the work boots, hard hat and work clothes that Terry needed for labouring work on construction sites. Terry said the jobcentre had not helped with these costs.
He shrugged when I asked why. I see that shrug a lot. Could have been that the jobcentre didn’t offer to pay for the clothes as it should have. Could have been that Terry kept the jobcentre at arm’s length and sorted things out himself where he could. Terry did not view the DWP as a go-to place for anyone who wanted to rehabilitate. Terry said he’d been sanctioned three times in the past for three months at a time.
“The dole should be doing all that [paying for work clothes], but they didn’t…the charity paid for my CSCS [worksite accreditation card]. They paid for me work boots, work pants, work coat work gloves, hard hat, everything. They got me everything to be able to work. Without any one of those things, I wouldn’t been able to go.”
Terry also had trouble meeting travel costs to and from work sites. The jobcentre would pay for his travel, but only as a reimbursement if he paid up front. That’s always a problem for people who can’t afford fares.
“They will help you get to work – but afterwards. If I am working with my mate tomorrow and it’s in Salford, I haven’t got a penny. So I can’t get there. If I had the money and had the bus fare and showed them [the jobcentre] the ticket two weeks later…[they’d pay]. They won’t give it you up front.”
Terry also had about £2000 in rent arrears. It’s not an exaggeration to say that about everyone I meet at foodbanks now has rent arrears, or has been evicted for rent arrears. Terry had built up his arrears when in prison. He’d lost his flat, but had kept the arrears. That’s how the system “works” for people such as Terry. One way or another, they keep paying long after they leave jail.
While we were there, I asked Terry for his views on Brexit. I’m always interested to know how the punter in the street views the current preoccupations of mainstream press and politics.
“Brexit? – don’t care,” Terry said. “Can’t see what difference it makes,”
and:
“government doesn’t affect me – in a good way. It might affect me in a bad way. That always seems to be the case,”
and:
“Pride in England? I don’t know…don’t think about it. I’m not obsessive like that. It’s just where I live, isn’t it? I’d live anywhere – well, not anywhere, but I would live like where you come from (New Zealand), or in America.. but I won’t be living there, because I am skint, to be honest.”
That was that.
Here’s the full transcript from that interview:
“I got rent arrears while I was in prison. £2000. Not going to pay that back easily.
Brexit – don’t care. Can’t see what difference it makes… Why are you writing this? It won’t make any difference…Government doesn’t affect me – in a good way. It might affect me in a bad way. That always seems to be the case.
Been inside for burglary – all over the place really.
On sanctions:
What they do is try and stop your money… when I went to prison, they try and stop your money. I fell into that trap before. I got sanctioned nine months altogether – sanctioned, sanctioned, sanctioned for missing appointments. Apparently, I had missed an appointment when I hadn’t. I lost three months money for something I hadn’t even done one time. The other two – yeah, I’d missed appointments, but they won’t catch me out like that again. Well – they might catch me out if they say I missed an appointment what I haven’t.
But I’m always early [for jobcentre appointments now] and they are not going to catch me out.
[Jobcentre appointments aren’t useful]. No. What they want is to see your jobsearch and if it is not good enough, that’s when they are like, “we’re going to stop your money and suspend your money,” and all of that. What they want to do – they don’t want to say, “your jobsearch is not that good, so what we’re going to do put you on this course to try and help you that way.”
I’ve been on courses, because I’ve asked to go on them… like “eligibility for work course” from the jobcentre. That’s the only one I been on since I was in prison. No – I been on a couple of computer courses. I can say I ask for them, bare stuff…
If you say to an employer that you’ve got those [courses] they don’t care. The thing is – once you start going, if you asked for them, like I do, if you go on a course like I did and it’s for a week, and you’ve been going for two week, and then you don’t go one day, and then they stop your money, if you asked to go on the course, it should be up to you… Fair enough if you on all of it, but if you missed one day when it’s your idea to go on it to better yourself…
[Regarding refunding of money for travel] They [the jobcentre] will help you get to work, but afterwards… so like now, if I am working with my mate tomorrow and it’s in Salford, I haven’t got a penny [to pay for travel to Salford]. So, I can’t get there. If I had the money and had the bus fare and showed them the ticket two weeks later… they won’t give it you up front… like if you’ve got probation, they’ll give you a ticket and you show it the driver and they give you that up front.
[I’m] on probation at the moment. Got three and a half year. Did about two year. Got about another ten month left. Jail. Burglary. First one I’d done in 15 year and I got caught… first time. I am not even lying. I didn’t do a few and then got caught. I got caught first time.
Three and half [years]. I had done time before for them… long time ago. Three years and many months for burglary now…
I’m in a hostel – Spring Street hostel near Tesco up there. It’s all right, I suppose. I got it through probation, through a charity. They helped me get CSCS card as well, so if it weren’t for them, I wouldn’t have been able to get bits of work. They got me work clothes as well. The dole should be doing all that, but they didn’t, so if I were on probation, I wouldn’t be able to do all this work, because the charity paid for CSCS card. They paid for me work boots, work pants, work coat, work gloves, hard hat, everything. They got me everything to be able to work. Without any one of those things, I wouldn’t been able to go. The dole won’t do that.
At the moment [the jobcentre], it’s all right, because I’m on this group thing, so they’re not on my back. They are all right. The group thing – they just give you a bit of information about courses and it’s just better than the normal. They don’t check the jobsearch on this group thing, which I been on for about two months. It’s a lot easier going.
[How much I earn] If I’m working… a couple of month ago, I earned £15 an hour, but it were only three week. Tomorrow, I’m only on £60 with a friend. Don’t know where it is. He will pick me up.
[The £2000 rent arrears is] because I went to prison. I filled the forms in, so they would pay me housing benefit and they didn’t pass the forms on, so I ended up with arrears and I lost the property. I woulda lost the property anyway. I did a few month on that sentence, lost me property and then I got sent away, so I woulda lost it anyway. I just lost it a few week earlier, so I can’t really blame them…. £2k arrears from that time. They won’t wipe it.
Been to them all prisons, Risley for 16, 17 months. It’s all right, Risley. Single cells. Only had about six double cells on every wing, so 12 people had to share out of 90. Ninety on each wing and ten wings…
I didn’t do nowt [in prison] me. No – actually, I went to education for two hours. People work in prison, don’t they. [I’m] not working in prison for a fiver a week, tenner a week. When you go to education, it is £7.50, so you can work for nine quid a week, morning and afternoon, or you can go to education for two hours and get £7.50. Makes sense to me. I lose £1.50 and get some education.
Most people work or go to education if not you are locked in your cell through the day … it’s fine. Nothing wrong with it. [It’s] not forever.
Can’t remember what I first thought when first sent down. I were only 15, so long time ago… 28 year ago. I am 43.
[I prefer being out of prison]. Out, obviously. Some days, you do think about going back, because you think at least I’d have something to do. At least there are people about. Like yesterday, I was in the flat all day. I didn’t think much about it, to be honest.
Today, will get me mate drop me off… watch snooker. I don’t know who is playing today. UK championship … I love snooker. I play a little bit. That’s why I like it.
Pride in England? I don’t know…don’t think about it. I’m not obsessive like that. It’s just where I live, isn’t it? I’d live anywhere – well, not anywhere, but I would live like where you come from, or in America.. but I won’t be living there, because I am skint, to be honest. It’s bad enough here, so it doesn’t make difference. I can’t live in Australia, or New Zealand. I can’t go. I’ve got a record, [so] can’t even go for a holiday. So with America, they won’t have it, even though I’ve not been done for assault. I went in for burglary and theft.
That was for money for drugs. Not using now. I was – heroin and crack. Crack is harsh. Not using now – not for since I got locked up two and a half year. I used for 20 year.
When I stopped, [I’d] been on it for half my life – yeah, half my life, more than half my life. It was hard coming off [and] coming off methadone as well. They give you methadone in prison, so I just come down like 5ml [unclear] a week, down to… down to nothing. It stops you being ill. If you have that [methadone], you don’t need it need it [heroin]. Don’t quite want it… most people do still want it.
There’s a big [drugs] scene round here. Massive. Massive. Hard to keep away from in the hostel. Most of them are on smack and crack in there.
I been in the hostel for six months. It’s like a little flat, like a bedsit with a kitchen – just big enough for a cooker and a bathroom and a shower, so it’s like a little flat. We don’t share. Downstairs they do, because they are on a licence. They got a room with a sink in it. They have to share a kitchen, so I’ve got me own… upstairs, I’ve got my own flat. Eight flats upstairs, ten rooms downstairs.
[When released from prison on licence] So, if you get like three and a half year, you do half of it and the rest is licence. If I commit a crime now, they could send me back for the rest of my licence, so if I commit shoplifting, which you would only get a month or two for normally, [I could get] ten and a half month potentially.
[On] Oldham… it’s where I live, isn’t it? Family here, my step mum. My mum lives in Morecambe. I have lived in Morecambe for a little bit. It’s shit. Obviously, Oldham is better than Morecambe.
I’ve got a sister and three step brothers. I don’t really see my step brothers much, even though they live in Oldham. I see more of my sister and she lives in Morecambe.”
So sad. He’s come through so much, gotten through serious addiction, bettered himself, working as much as he can, and what does he get? Arrears, sanctions, and no help.
All this debt which is swallowing these people whole is Bankruptcy not an option to get rid of it all and start a clean sheet? I am no legal mind but surely some could do this .
I agree with you there Cherry, surely this man could declare himself bankrupt and avoid at least the rent arrears ?
I don’t think it’s as simple as that. You can’t just declare yourself bankrupt, you have to apply. There are circumstances that have to be fulfilled and according to http://www.gov.uk it actually costs £680 to apply to become bankrupt. Bankruptcy is not for the poor, not really.
It’s typical of the Catch 22 situation that benefit claimants find themselves in, that they are expected to take a job , and somehow find the travel costs out of fresh air. Most of these people, particularly the long-term unemployed, are without any savings, credit cards or any financial resources at all. And if they don’t take the job, because they can’t afford the bus or train fares, then its a three-month sanction for refusing employment. Is that fair ?
It does interest me, this reimbursement stuff. Find it a lot. Maybe the dwp expects you to walk or bike or whatever to prove yourself…the upper reaches do like the idea of the rest of us sweating for it
I think they do expect it Kate. That people should walk down the railway tracks overnight, in order to be there in the morning when the office opens.
Indeed. The dwp’s sadistic aspect always interests me. It’s inherent. It’s not just that people must work – it’s that they must work to work.
You have to very careful with some of the so-called ‘learning providers’ that provide the courses the Jobcentre send you on. A friend of mine volunteered for a course with Learndirect. He was in a class where most of the people had been sent there on a mandatory basis. He made it plain to them that he was volunteering on his own account, and they said they understood this.
A job interview came up, and he went to it instead of his voluntary course. The providers sanctioned him for not attending, and he was looking at three months without money. Luckily his advisor was one of the old-school decent ones, and he managed, with some difficulty, to get the sanction stopped at the last minute.
It used to be a recognised as common-sense that people would need extra financial help if they moving into employment, particularly after long-term unemployment. And there was a decades-long tradition of financial help to people seeking employment.
The original JSA system allowed for a run-on of Housing Benefit for two weeks after taking a job. There was money up-front for travel costs, clothing etc. Not as loans, but simply given as grants. There was also a one-off payment of £100 available to new job starters. (A few years ago the Joseph Rowntree Foundation calculated that someone needed I think it was £128, to start a new job, for absolute basics ). Then came the so-called ‘welfare reforms’ .
Iain Duncan-Smith scrapped all the previous system, which was only providing the bare essentials, and replaced it with nothing at all.
Now there is nothing paid in advance, whatever the circumstances.
And everything now is a loan, in accordance with the principles of social justice, of which IDS was so fond.
100% True. The money situation for anyone claiming is really just beyond stupid. They don’t have enough money to live on as it is.
Then the Jobcentre expect them to sign-off, with nothing and take some crap zero-hours job where they don’t know what the money is from week to week, or if it’ll cover their rent. And keep paying the rent, getting to work, getting food, keeping the electric on and everything else by magic for all the Jobcentre know.
I suppose its inevitable being what they are, but the DWP are obsessed with work.
You could swear it was something holy the way they carry on.
It is, in the eyes of the Establishment. It’s that pesky Protestant Work Ethic, which stems from the Masonic belief of attaining Ascension through Work in the Light of Knowledge. Essentially Luciferian/Hermeticism. That’s why the Roman Catholics viewed it asBlashemy, the notion that Man can raise himself. Study the Rosicrucian teachings of Max Heindel & youll see what I’m on about.
But they don’t have much work ethic, with inherited wealth and land, and cushy well-paid jobs like stockbroker and investment fund manager. Half the fault with all this lies with the great British working-class and their sheep-head attitudes which allow them to be so easily manipulated. As Aneurin Bevan said the whole art of conservative politics lies in making poverty keep wealth in power.
yes, theyre hypocrites, they probably think that their inherited wealth is Divinely ordained.
Well, they’ve got a Vicar’s daughter to look after things for them.
And you can bet that a load of them will vote Tory in 2022, even if it means Boris Johnson for PM, hair-dye and all.
He looks like someone stuck a mop in bucket of peroxide and then slapped it on his head.
And on top of everything else this poor man is down at the foodbank as well.
Its a cruel system that we have now, and one that doesn’t care at all. Where would all these people be if it wasn’t for the foodbanks ?
Trouble is, if your benefits have been sanctioned & youve no money for gas/leccy, how you gonna cook the food?
I remember a woman at the Poole foodbank telling me she gave things like tins with ringpulls to street homeless people because they didn’t necessarily have tin openers or places to cook. Cold beans out of a can. Etc.
And once they drop out the safety net what help is there to pull these people back into society ? There is no clearer indicator of Tory disdain for the poor than their attitude to the homeless. We are going back to the Victorian Era. How long before we see Universal Credit Workhouses where people can go and work under supervision ?
Ringpullcans are ok up to a point but the foodbank also gives out things like dried pasta, noodles,instant mash, porridgeoats etc. which obviously need to be boiled. If you got no leccy youre screwed.
Strange how this is the new normal. Foodbanks. There were hardly any just a few years ago, and now they are everywhere. But they knew this was going to happen. Either that or they get the Red Cross in, and Cameron stopped that.
As Ken Loach said, they are using hunger to punish and control people. And the fear of it as well. All it takes is a nasty Work Coach, and you and your family could be out on the street.
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I see Labour have gone back down the rabbit hole again on Universal Credit.
They just won’t stand up and say scrap it, get rid of it and start again.
You could make a better benefits system than we have, but not if its based on punishing and controlling people.
The Tory benefit reforms start from the principle that you shouldn’t be claiming benefits in the first place, hence the guilt-mongering and sanctions. To IDS and his gang being on benefits is like being a drug-addict, not really very nice and something you shouldn’t be doing,
Sanctions don’t help anyone & they should be abolished, but even the Labour party support the use of Benefit Sanctions. I did a Manual Handling course (one day) a couple months ago, not mandatory but as part of training that the Jobcentre badgered me into doing (with Learndirect). It was in another city but I never got my bus fares refunded.
Trev, I’ve heard the DWP have not refunded expenses for jobseekers travelling to interview for DWP call-centre jobs (poor devils, forced more like ).
Ever since the scandal of the DWP being discovered trying not to tell people about advance payments available, they have been just the same. Advisors pretending Hardship Benefit doesn’t exist, or that there are no payments available for clothing or travel. Its all just trying it on. Extra pressure on the claimant and it saves DWP money – so brownie points for the Advisor.
Sadly a lot of this plays to basic human selfishness. Over Christmas some people will be sleeping on the streets half-starved and frozen. Others will be reading the Daily Mail in warm homes surrounded by a comforting sense of the rightness of things.
I wouldn’t be so sure about that. I don’t think Daily Mail readers are ever fully happy, even with their precious Tories in power. There’s always something to get ‘outraged’ about.
If they’ve got a takeaway, Eastenders on the telly and a couple of beers they couldn’t care less.
I’ve just been reading that the government are now planning to means test free school dinners under universal credit, instead of automatically qualifying all kids from families receiving UC it is to be subject to an earnings threshold that will mean that families are actually better off if they work/earn less! So much for “making work pay”. Arbeit Macht Frei, more like. This is the meanest, nastiest government I’ve ever known. They truly must take their inspiration from Ebenezer Scrooge.
But Scrooge saw the light after the three Ghosts. The Tories don’t think there is any light to see. As far as they are concerned they are not doing anything wrong.
Wait ’til they get a visit from the ghost of Brexit past…
Or the Ghost of Brexit Future. It’ll be no good hiding in the cemetery then with the finger of fate pointing at them.
Tory Councillor Graham Galpin has tweeted criticism of what he thinks are obese people using foodbanks, saying that they eat too many pizzas. Where do I even start? Galpin, you are a fucking disgusting Tory cunt. Please do us all a favour & die soon.
Amen to that
Sorry if that s a bit strong, I was feeling very very angry after hearing that particular story on the local news (BBC Look North). Councillor Galpin is from somewhere down south, Ashford, which I think might be in Kent (?), but the woman he insulted is from Barnsley & had rightfullyraisedthe subject of foodbanks on Question Time,only to suffer abuse from Rightwing scumbags aBout her weight!
Trev, this is the only thing they can do. Try and put off answering the real questions by using a red herring like this. Cheap stuff and typical Tory in a hole.
This is the Foodbank as alternative supermarket myth, widely spread by the right-wing press. Where people, often single mothers or with too many tattoos, go the Foodbank where they can get a load of free food, and then have their benefits money all to spend on cheap cider and more tattoos.
Few years ago the Social used to have a list of clothing basics that everybody had to have as a minimum. You know, stuff like 2 shirts, 2 trousers, a sweater, an overcoat, pair of shoes etc. Now there are many people couldn’t make that list with what they have.
This isn’t even considered now, shows how far things have changed.
But then there weren’t foodbanks in every town in those days.
Or going down the bookies, buying designer tracksuits and laying about smoking dope. All because they saved the money by going to Trussels instead of Tesco.
The Tories view being on benefits as essentially subversive, an alternate lifestyle where people reject the concept of work, and with it their proper place in society. They fail to see that it is their own harsh policies which have created a society of alienation and inequality. One where many feel there is little point in participating.
There’s little point participating in exchange for £7.50 per hour, that’s for sure. By the time you’ve paid your National Insurance, bus fares, rent & Council Tax, you’d be no better off than on the dole.
Trev, thats so true and exactly why the Tories have had to make people take these jobs. By slashing welfare and running their endless campaign against those who claim it.
Universal Credit is nothing more than a chain with which to drag people into cheap low-pay work.
Cheap & insecure low-paid work, often through an agency, & described with the curious status of “temporary-permanent”. It wouldn’t be so bad if the work was meaningful or half-interesting , but standing on a “fast paced” production line tightening bottle tops doesn’t exactly inspire me. That was a real job btw, that a guy I know did for a while in a local chemical factory. Thousands of plastic bottles whizzed by as he had to check that each one had the lid fully tightened, & maybe 1 in 100 had half a turn left. Mind numbing. It’s enough to make tattoos & daytime telly seem appealing.
This is true, and more and more people are realising how much things are being stacked against them. The basic economics of zero-hours jobs instead of proper work just doesn’t add-up. At least not for the workers. Unless you like trying to deliver 300 parcels a day.
Did you know that parliament is an anagram of partial men? Not really suprising somehow. But then again the anagram of Tory MP is Mr Typo.
Theresa May anagram = Shame Teary
James Hunt anagram = The Jurymen
Damian Green anagram = Maiden Anger
I can’t say ‘Jeremy Hunt’ without thinking of something else.
Try it, it’s impossible.
Was that Hunt The Shunt as they used to call him, or the other one ?
The angram of Corbyn Do Something
is Benching Dooms Tory. – Spooky or not ?
The Tories don’t care, and they don’t care that they don’t care, as it were.
When the Coalition came in they grabbed the chance of a lifetime to destroy the welfare state. Then Labour messed it up again, and we had Cameron. So now they had elbow room to finish the job.
When are Labour going to do something about Universal Cruelty or is it already too late ? In the name of all the hungry, homeless suffering people that are being tormented by Universal Credit. In the name of your supposed socialism, Jeremy Corbyn do something about it. Sing a song and tapdance but do something !
You know what worries me ? A hung parliament at the next election.
A swift Tory visit to the Libdems and the DUP .
Then Coalition 2 – The Empire Strikes Back.
I see the Tories are still trying to defend Universal Credit. It’s no good David Gauke trying to pretend that it is some wonderful humanitarian system. The small changes to payments were only made in the face of months of outrage by claimants, MPs and disability groups, and a major parliamentary inquiry which completely condemned the way UC is operating. It’s still a brutal, regressive system, where sick and seriously disabled, and even terminally-ill people, are forced to work by the direct threat of hunger and destitution.
Putting lipstick on a pig doesn’t make it any less of a pig.
At least now Universal Credit has been shown up for what it is, and what actually happens to people who claim it. The way the DWP carry on you could swear it was almost fun to claim it.
Would it be better if Debbie Abrahams was made Labour Leader ?
Jeremy Corbyn is like watching somebody’s uncle Fred the caretaker, who somehow has become Labour Leader. He’s far too polite and modest, so he just gets ignored. The Tories have been in pieces recently but JC just can’t score any points against them. It’s not his fault, he’s just not the type for it.
We can’t afford to have the only political opposition bumbling along like this.