Photo: Christos Mpampouras. By Abi Ramanan, Athens, October 2012.

This is the third transcript from the recorded interviews Abi Ramanan and I made in Athens last week. We interviewed people there about the economic crisis, service cuts and the rise of fascism. We’re publishing transcripts from the recorded interviews we made on this site over the next week.

There’s more background and the first interview (with a Golden Dawn voter called Kelly) is here.

The second interview with highschool teacher Pavlos Antonopoulos is here.

This is a transcript of a recorded interview with Christos Mpampouras, 61. He is a drummer and was a farmworker. He told us that he has a small farmworkers’ pension. He is originally from Ipeiros and now lives in Athens. He visits the municipal soup kitchen in Omonoia twice a day for meals. There were hundreds of people queuing for lunch when we went to the soup kitchen at about midday on Friday 26 October. Many of the people in the queue were elderly.

On needing the soup kitchen
I’ve been coming here for about five years, for two meals a day. I have very good relations with the people who work here. If they need help with shipping or unloading things, I help out.

It used to be that maybe about 250 Greeks came here, but now it’s probably increased to 500 people for each meal. A lot people really need it, but there are also people who don’t need it. Most of the people who come for food are older people like me, but there are also a lot of young people who are drug addicts. There is no reason why they should come.

I used to work part-time with my drums. There wasn’t a lot of work and my [farmworkers’] pension is one of the lowest in Greece. A friend brought me here [to the soup kitchen]. I don’t have my own house in Athens. I rented one before the crisis. After that, I didn’t make enough money to pay the rent, so now I’m staying with a friend temporarily. Of the 500 regulars I know who go to the soup kitchen, maybe 100 have their own house.

On the rise of the Golden Dawn
I don’t have a problem with the Golden Dawn, because they’re Greeks and they’re also young people and they don’t have work. I don’t think they’re fascists. I don’t know why people call them fascists. The politician [communist party MP Liana Kanelli] who got slapped on television [by Golden Dawn MP Ilias Kasidiaris] – I liked her and I used to vote for the Communist party myself, but she was very provocative on that television show. I think she was calling him a fascist, so it was not surprising that he got angry. The Golden Dawn – they’re not that bad. They haven’t hurt me and they’re Greeks and they’re young.

On immigration
I’m okay with people coming from Syria, or Iraq, because they have war, but I can’t understand why people come from Albania and take my job and my pension. Albanians – go to Albania. Go to your country instead of here. I’m not a racist. An Albanian comes here, makes some money which in his country is a lot of money. He makes a fortune. If I work for five months, I won’t make that sort of money.

Drugs in Omonoia
There are lots of people here on drugs. They sell the drugs in matchboxes. Mostly, the black people sell them, but sometimes, when the police come, they give the matchboxes to Greeks because the police don’t search them. That means that the black people don’t get caught. When the police leave, they get back the drugs and they keep selling them. The blacks go [and wait] outside the hospitals for drug addicts, so that they can sell them drugs.

Everyone is responsible for the crisis, because everyone was living outside of their means. It is my fault as well, because I didn’t save enough money before the crisis. My father in the village used to have a phrase which roughly translated says “the river doesn’t always bring wood.” You can’t always expect the river to bring wood and now the river is no longer bringing wood.

I’m 61 years old and I won’t receive the pension I’m entitled to until I’m 65. I thought that I would be all right until I was 65, but now I’m unemployed, because nobody will hire me at 61.

I have a son. We haven’t spoken in years because I was divorced. I don’t want to contact him and I don’t really have anyone in the family who I can seek out and talk to.

The food at the soup kitchen
The food is clean. Monday, they have lentil soup. Tuesday, it’s chicken. Wednesday, it’s fish. Sometimes, there’s meatballs, so there’s a variety. The food is good quality, but I can’t put as much salt in it as I want. You can’t go there and say – I want to put more salt and pepper in. It’s not like when you make your own food.

When there’s chicken, it finishes very quickly. Usually, there isn’t a problem, but if they have something nice, it goes very fast.

They had a lot of soup here. Soup is fine for the morning, but I don’t like it when they have soup in the evening, or for lunch. Soup is very little for lunch. You don’t feel like you’re eating. You eat more like a person in the church foodbank, because you can add oils and spices.

Video: graffiti on a torched mosque and a school in Kallithea where teachers have been running antifascist campaigns:

Last week, I went to Athens with a friend called Abi Ramanan. We interviewed people there about the economic crisis, service cuts and the rise of fascism. We’re publishing transcripts from the recorded interviews we made on this site over the next week.

There’s more background and the first interview (with a Golden Dawn voter called Kelly) is here.

This post is a transcript with a teacher called Pavlos Antonopoulos. He has been a teacher for 30 years – the last 12 at an Athens highschool. He describes the neighbourhood and school catchment area as working-class. His students are aged between 15 and 17. He is also a well-known activist.

In this interview, he talks about the Golden Dawn’s increasingly bold attempts (the last one just three days before we met) to make contact with his students – to get into the school and to talk to students. He also talks about drastic cuts to school resources, the government’s plans to cut funds and the number of teachers further by merging Antonopoulos’ school with another and his belief that Greece and working people will only have any sort of future if the troika is foiled, austerity is abandoned and the country returns to the drachma:

On the growing confidence of the Golden Dawn:
“A few days ago, three older former students [one-time students of the school] – they were about 20 or 21 years old – they came into the school and were speaking with students.

The person who was on the school’s security door didn’t mind [that person let them in], so they came in. They may have been sympathetic to them. They may have been afraid. When I saw them, I asked them to go out [to leave]. Two weeks earlier, [they’d tried to get into the school] but when I asked them to leave, I was successful. They went out. [This time, though], three days ago, they argued when I told them to go out. They started to say many things. I threw them out, but when they were at the gate, they told the security person “we will take care of you”, but that they would stab me.

I went to the manager – the president of the school. I told him, but I don’t think he understood what I told him, so I went to the police station. I was lucky – because the police officer had a little girl who was a student in my school [so he knew me]. That was the only way [I got a hearing].

We had a big conversation about this and I asked him to bring the three young men to the police station to have a talk. I told him that I would go to court – so yesterday, he called me and I went there and he called the three there. We had a conversation – all of us. Of course – they said “we didn’t say those things. We didn’t mean it.” Some days before, the fascists had made an announcement that they would fire all teachers in the area who speak against fascism. We decided to speak in the classrooms against fascism, against the Golden Dawn and now, they try to stop us.

On food and books
[In] the last year, we noticed that many students didn’t have enough to eat. We had a meeting with a council of parents and they told us that in our school, they had about 15 cases like this, where the children didn’t have food. We tried to form a group to help them. Where I live, we have one union like this…Kids are swooning, because they don’t eat. We paid for the food ourselves – teachers and the other parents… We [also] give free lessons for the children that can’t pay. [When] we have demonstrations and strikes, we take the children. We try to make them fight against the situation.

Last year, we didn’t have books. It was the first time since the war that we didn’t have books. We made copies from all the books and gave them to children. Of course – that was more expensive than books, but they didn’t want to give money for books, so they pressed us to give money ourselves, from our pockets, to do photocopies.

[They are merging] two schools in our area – my school and another. This means many more children in the classroom now, because the school has merged. It’s part of the cuts. They merge schools into one with the same number of kids. They try to use less [sic] teachers, so they increase the number of pupils in the class. We lost about ten teachers as part of the merger in these two schools.

That is one thing. The second is that they cut our [teacher] salaries. They changed everything. A new teacher now takes about €580 per month. If you think that three years before, the salary was about €1000 – they’ve cut about half the salary. [Meanwhile prices go up]. For petrol – in two years, the price is has about doubled. Now, it is about €1.80 per litre for gas and now, to heat houses, it’s going to something like €1.40.

Leaving the Euro
We believe that this is the solution now for the working class – we have to leave the Euro, because we can’t make our own economic policies [while we’re in Europe]. They [the troika] use the threat that we’re going to go out of the Euro every time that they want to pass more austerity measures.

We can’t control our salaries, or our prices – nothing, because the Euro is stable. If your money supply is controlled by the EU, you can’t do anything. We have to change our policy. We have to start producing what we started closing several years before – clothing, sugar, the shipyards. We don’t produce anything now. We import. If it will continue in this way, we will collapse in two or three years.

Motivating students
The young people have lost their belief in the future, so it’s very difficult for us to make them focus on their lessons and to prepare for university, because they say – “we’re going to the university and after, we will not have jobs.” Most of them will look for a way to leave Greece. We try to force them to fight to change the situation. That means that they have to fight for their schools, for their books, for money for the schools.

They can’t find jobs. I have three children – one is 37, one is 34 and the youngest is 24. None of them works now. The first one lost his job two years ago. He’s tried to find a job everywhere, but he can’t find any job. The second is my girl. She has a degree in fine arts. She can’t find job anywhere. The last – he has a degree and he can’t find a job. My daughter has a boyfriend now and she wants to get married, but I said – forget it for the next ten years. There are too many problems.

On immigration
Immigration is a big problem, because Greece is the gate to Europe. Thousands of immigrants come to Greece, because they want to go to other parts of Europe. Of course [I understand why they want to come here]. The problem starts in their countries, because they are bombing. I went to Gaza some years ago when Israel was bombing it. I couldn’t believe that people could live in that situation. They were bombing from the air and tanks. I stayed a few days. I thought I was in hell. People can’t stay there.

They are trapped here – it’s a trap in Greece for them. Like in the second world war – they used the Jews [to blame for economic problems]. Now they use immigrants. We believe that the solution is first to give them papers. We have to recognise that they exist. Second – we have to open the borders and say to them “Go where you want.” For the immigrants who want to stay here – you have to give them places to stay.. Of course – they [austerity’s supporters] use them to make as scapegoats.

Audio recording of interview with Kelly, 27 October 2012: Why I voted for the Golden Dawn.

Last week, I went to Athens for several days with a friend called Abi Ramanan. We interviewed as many people as we could about the economic crisis, service cuts and the rise of fascism. We’ll be publishing a number of articles about the experience – we have one in particular that focuses on the racism and warnings about her safety that Abi had to contend with and that I – because I am white – did not. In some respects, our trip had an air of segregation about it.

Abi first called me in about March this year to suggest the trip. She’d just visited Athens, where she’d been interviewing people about the appalling results of austerity there. She knew that I was interviewing people around the UK who were on the sharp end of this government’s cuts – people who were losing care services, benefits, homes and any hope of rescue – and wanted to know if I’d join her on another visit to Athens, to talk to more people and compare cuts stories from Greece with cuts stories in the UK.

I thought that idea had plenty of merit. Making contacts across the continent and swapping notes and plans for fightback seemed a sensible move, particularly as austerity continues to march Europe deeper into poverty, shock, fascism and other forms of oblivion. Reporting that and the wider experience is a crucial part of the response of those of us who refuse to accept that most people exist to serve out as austerity’s fodder. To put it another way – everyone everywhere needs to know when and where poverty and fascism are taking people out across Europe and anyone who is in a position to report that should be doing so.

On this site, we’re publishing transcripts of the recorded interviews we made in Athens. We have about ten to post, which we’ll do over the next few days. We’ll add links to our other articles as they appear. We’ll also be adding the audios from the interviews when we’ve had time to upload them.

This first interview is with Kelly, 31. We met her last Saturday. She voted for the Golden Dawn in the recent elections and plans to vote for them again. She explains why in this interview.

Kelly studied communications and works in telecommunications for four to six hours a day. She earns around €400 a month, plus commission. She also works as a stylist. She lives in Kallithea with her parents and her brother. 

On the political situation, paying the bills and trying to find work:
“I am pessimistic. [There are] many problems. The working class is suffering, I was living a lie. My parents, my tutors and the system told me how my life would be and I realised it wasn’t true.

I don’t know how to get through this and live the rest of my years. I feel it was all a lie because I can’t have the work I think I deserve. I can’t have a family. The crisis isn’t only economic. We don’t believe in things now – it is also a crisis of confidence. The political situation isn’t only in our pockets with work. It’s in our minds – we can’t trust anyone anymore.

Depression, anger, [the fact that] we can’t make dreams is a common feeling, especially among young people in Greece.

[I believe] that the situation has been caused the socialist party of George Papandreou – they took advantage of the good circumstances in the previous period and as a result this generation has to suffer.

On the appeal of the Golden Dawn
“I’m not here to say Golden Dawn are good. I’m here to explain the intention of the Golden Dawn voter. I don’t have a problem with immigrants. If an immigrant came to my house and wanted to eat, I’ll be the first person to give him food. I’m very generous and all Greek people are too – they will help anyone.

But I believe that I would prefer to vote for a party that says [things like] – “you know what? I’m the worst. I’m a fascist” – but [at least] are honest and straightforward in what they do. Not like the other parties who say – “I’ll increase your salary and your unemployment benefit will increase”, which are all lies. I appreciate the fact that Golden Dawn members are very straightforward and don’t want parliamentary salaries, but normal ones.

Golden Dawn is also against the memorandum and the most important reason for their appeal is because it’s a stroke [a hit] against the other political parties. It’s revenge. I believe that Golden Dawn is an extreme party, but I believe that the political system is a jungle and is also extreme. The existing system is pro-austerity.

The worst thing in Greek society is the cultivating media that misleads Greek people. For example, they say that Golden Dawn is anti-immigration, but at the same time, they are selling the country. So, to mislead [divert] us, they tell us about Golden Dawn, but the situation is more complex than that. They are cultivating us. They use Golden Dawn as a means to divide people.

I would not like to see a government with Golden Dawn as the main political party. I feel they should be in opposition, because I’m a little bit afraid of them. Even though I can understand the intention of someone to vote for Golden Dawn, I’m not sure that they should be government. Also, I don’t believe any political party can lead Greece out of this crisis. Only going back to the drachma will solve this. At first there will be a slump but in the future we will grow again.

In every party, there are bad people. When there is a protest in Syntagma, some anarchists will take advantage and start to burn the city, in Golden Dawn, there are some – not fascists, but psychos who will take advantage of situations. I’m afraid and a little bit concerned of what comes out of them, with all the news of attacks on immigrants. It’s more extreme than what I thought, but, if there were elections now, I would vote for Golden Dawn again.

On Golden Dawn’s attacks on immigrants
I don’t believe that all the stories are real. But, one day on the bus, there was a big man who started shouting at an immigrant – “get off the bus!” and “get your legs down!” and things like that. I freaked out. That makes me angry. But – I have had situations in the last year [with immigrants that I’ve had to deal with]. I went out for a walk at 11 o’clock at night. There was a man – a Russian or something like that – in his car. He was in the car with a junkie. They had a fight and the junkie got out and started to scream, I waited for a bit and then started to walk.

The driver saw me. He started following me inside the car. He started speaking to me – he kind of blocked my way two times with his car. It seemed like he was coming out of the car and maybe to try to grab me in an assault. I started to run and luckily my house was only ten seconds from this place. There is a problem in Greece – the immigrants here don’t want a better future. They don’t want to work and make families. They are from jails, they are engaging with crime, they are not civilised people. They rape [and] they are thieves. Not all the immigrants – but a lot of the immigrants here are like this. I know this from my own personal experience and from various other incidents. This is not from the media, but from my friends and people I know. Not from the media.

I am against Golden Dawn going into schools and hospitals, but, I also condemn the mainstream media for not giving them equal publicity to other political parties. They have no space in the media and so they have to go from door to door to spread their message and communicate their ideas.

Some of them are fascists but some of them aren’t. I am not a fascist person.”

On the past, friends, family and the drachma
I didn’t follow politics when I was younger. In Greece, when you support a party, you get some benefits [from that] – work and so on, so maybe I should do it, but I prefer to vote for Golden Dawn. I have always lived in Athens and I don’t think I want to leave, even with [the economic] situation. I believe that Greek people are very generous and very polite. We have a good energy. I have travelled to some countries and I believe that believe Greek people are the best.

The majority of people oppose the drachma policy – they say things will get worse and worse. I know people who have voted for Golden Dawn, who are like me, who are not fascist people, and other parties are criticising them again and again. The real fascist people are the other parties. I would never call someone a fascist for what they believe in.

[My friends are] considering leaving Greece, but we none of us want to leave. We love our country. To go away you have to have money and you need work. It is more difficult. Around ten percent of my friends are interested in Golden Dawn.

My parents find the situation very difficult. They feel sad about our generation and the dreams they had for their children, the destruction of the healthcare system and the reduction of pensions. They did not vote for Golden Dawn. I am the black sheep of the family. They understand why I did vote for them though. They didn’t criticise me.