Posting this because I am very badly pissed off, even for a Monday:
For nearly two weeks, I’ve been trying to get answers from the HMRC and/or the DWP for a story I’m writing about a disabled woman who had to wait THREE MONTHS for her Universal Credit claim to start.
She was receiving statutory sick pay each month, because she had to take indefinite leave from work.
As I understand it, the HMRC was supposed to tell the DWP how much statutory sick pay she received each month, so that the DWP could adjust her Universal Credit claim accordingly and pay her some money (she particularly needed the Universal Credit to meet her rent). i think this might have to do with the famous HMRC-DWP Real Time system. Who can really say. God knows how any of this is meant to work. Probably it isn’t. It’s all a total pile.
Needless to say, neither the HMRC nor the DWP managed to do what they were supposed to in this woman’s case. They were even more useless in this instance than they are on the rest of Universal Credit, which is an amazing achievement.
The HMRC couldn’t get the sick pay totals right and the DWP refused to make any adjustments, so this woman’s benefit claim went nowhere for months. I’ll be publishing a longer story about this soon.
Point today is that someone needs to answer questions about the wreckage that is Universal Credit and the relationship between the DWP and the HMRC. Problem is that nobody will.
I’m getting very sick of this. I’ve had it with being ignored by government departments.
I rang and wrote to the HMRC and the DWP asking both departments how Universal Credit and Real Time adjustments are supposed to work, if statutory sick pay was included – and these adjustments don’t work.
All I’ve had back is several emails from some faceless HRMC bureaucrat/actual robot who keeps writing this exact sentence:
“Thanks Kate, I will see what I can do.”
I know what he can do. He does fuck all. He certainly doesn’t answer my questions.
Maybe somebody out there can. If anybody knows anything about claiming statutory sick pay and claiming Universal Credit, and the “system” that the HMRC is supposed to use to inform the DWP about the amount of statutory sick pay a Universal Credit claimant receives, give me a shout.
Kate,
I really do feel your frustration but, you know just aswell as I, along with every single disabled person out there who has had any contact at all with the DWP that, every single one of them are indeed ROBOTS, they have to be, as robots don’t actually feel, they have NO FEELINGS, which is exactly why the DWP ONLY EMPLOY ROBOTS!!!!!
If they employed human beings then they wouldn’t tell all the very blatant lies they tell during the ESA assessments etc that causes so very much stress to everyone who attends them!!
And also Kate, if they actually employed human beings as so called “Healthcare Proffesionals” to do these assessments instead of the robots they do employ, then they would join the very long list of disabled people living in pain 24/7 that cannot sleep at night due to the guilt they would feel for telling the very many Blatant Lies about someone who they don’t even know!!!!!
And we all know Kate, just as you will never ever get the answers you are after, that will never ever happen, as this very Corrupt Prime minister & her Very Corrupt government have a knack of covering up so many things, instead of putting them all where they should be, for their very many dispicable crimes against the disabled & the rest of humanity, BEHIND BARS, every single one of the Scumbag, Corrupt, Perverted, Lying, Cheating BASTARDS!!!!!!!!
You can probably tell I share your frustration Kate!!
Good luck in getting the answers you need Kate, I have a feeling you’ll need all the luck, not in this very very Corrupt country, but all the luck in the this corrupt World we live in today!!!
Amen to that. I have peaked with these clowns.
Having experienced these bureaucrats who are penalised for passing on negative results and information, that is telling any one in a position of authority that the system does not work.
However, a person with a disability (or not ) and is entitled to benefit, has the RIGHT in law of a Duty of Care by both HMRC and DWP. It is easier to issue a claim through the Small claims Court if you have tried to get what you are entitled and ” the system” has failed you. the cost of issuing a claim if you are entitled to benefit is nothing Stop ringing the DWP and HMRC and ring your local small claims court.
I have worked in the civil service in the past.
When management want to issue a response below the usual high standards, they do several things:
1) Ask a very junior member of staff to send the response. Often, the instructions come with an email or handwritten note from management saying exactly what the junior member of staff should write.
2) Only explain the case to the junior member of staff very briefly or not at all.
3) Provide very little or no background documentation.
As a result of the junior member of staff sending out a response, there might be another letter/email sent into the office. It might be quite irate. Management will get hold of that letter/email and ask a DIFFERENT junior member of staff to send out ANOTHER response.
They DON’T ask the person who usually sends out similar correspondence. That way, they don’t let the person with the knowledge/experience get a look in. Where management would usually pass the case to that official, they just bypass him/her and ask a junior member of staff instead.
As a result of this practice, someone who contacts a government department and asks a difficult question will typically receive multiple responses that don’t address the problem/question and say pretty much the same thing each time.
In my day, a name would show up on pieces of correspondence sent out to complainants. It would look like lots of officials had reviewed the case from a fresh perspective and yet reached exactly the same conclusion. I never questioned putting my name to things I knew nothing about until I had a grievance against the organisation myself. I was only in my 20s at the time.
Nowadays, robots replace human names, so that you can’t see who actually sent the email. Sometimes, the bot has a very human-sounding name. Often, the bot has the same name each time, but the human behind the bot can vary. Junior members of staff, temps, apprentices, interns…anybody who wants a bit of work and doesn’t ask too many questions.
The latest innovation in pen-pushing is to contract out the whole back office to a company in a foreign country. So you could contact a local council and receive an answer that was written in India.
Private companies use this method a lot, e.g. for customer complaints and bill queries. In recent years, it has become popular with local councils as well.
Accountability is a big problem for public services carried out in this way.
Private contractors often receive payments for positive feedback on customer satisfaction surveys, often issued before any real resolution has been achieved. You end up answering: “Yes, this official seemed very polite and helpful. Yes, I am happy with the resolution that was promised – even though it hasn’t happened yet.”
So while this lady was waiting 3 months, did she get enough sick pay to cover her rent, food and bills? Was she getting into arrears? Did she go to the food bank? Was she living off family and friends?
I had a similar experience trying to contact a local council recently. I got several robotic emails titled “Confirm Task Processing” over a period of 2 months, before a human being issued a response.
I post the link when I publish the full story. It’ll be on another site.
Sounds like maybe a job for the woman’s MP ? Also there is an online complaints form for HMRC on .gov but you have to log on with a Government Gateway account (which she should have if claiming benefits) in order to use the form.
I prefer to hit them at the top, the person in charge with any complaint. I go to ceomail.com from there you can find any CEO of a company, DWP/JCP, ATOS, CAPITA, CDHA, you name them I will go to the top with a complaint rather than mess about with minions who try and stall you as long as possible so you give up.
Would it be better to break the logjam of emails/answering machines with a written complaint to the following ? ( In your own inimitable style Kate )
Write to this address to complain about HMRC’s online services.
HM Revenue and Customs – Digital Service Complaints
3rd Floor Accounts Office
Victoria Street
Shipley
BD98 8AA
United Kingdom
Plus a letter to this lady’s MP, plus of course the online HMRC complaint form.
This all just shows the problems that are going to occur when Universal Credit is fully rolled-out.
BD98 ? Sounds like theyve got their own weird postcode thing going on. It’s actually in BD17, I worked there briefly about 18 yrs ago & it was all a bit ‘cloak & dagger’. There used to be a public enquiry desk/Reception but you had to be escorted in by security & couldnt go any further without clearance. I’d better not say anymore thathan that, Official Secrets an all that.
The red fox trots quietly at midnight. Or, as they say in the Czech Republic,’ Červená liška pochoduje tiše po půlnoci.’
Not sure many people are fluent in Czech on this forum.
There may be people present in unknown buildings allegedly working for DWP, but not much sign of it in real world
I only write to DWP via head office at caxton house. only known good address at the moment. All other offices are NFA c/o wolverhampton.
Rare to see anything resembling a signature or even a name. recent letters appear to have been written by a ‘team’
but it is understandable – I wouldn’t want to sign my name to some of the garbage they come out with
I have had contact with named DWP decision-makers working in Belfast. Someone helping me sometimes gets to speak to one on the telephone and once by email.
P.S. Nice dog photo!
I can’t help thinking that the general reluctance of the DWP / HMRC is all part of a system not really designed to be too helpful to claimants.
This is true. The whole system is based on being suspicious of claimants. And also a fear that they might get a few pennies more than they are supposed to. So the system is paranoid about overpayment.
Yet the bosses of Carrillion were earning £millions, while their own company was going bust. MPs asked them about their salaries. None of them showed even a tinge of remorse about pocketing all this money, leaving their own business to go bust and their staff to lose their jobs and their contractors to not get paid.
Compare this to many small business-owners, who don’t draw a salary at all if the business is short of cash.
Yet rich people avoid £BILLIONS in tax that they could pay if they had a conscience.
Yet private companies like ATOS, Maximus and Capita make a FORTUNE from the taxpayer for providing a very poor service.
Yet the government effectively lost £BILLIONS bailing out the banks. Then the banks used taxpayers’ hard-earned cash to keep paying for £million-pound bonuses.
Now there is talk of bailing out Richard Branson. Why can’t the government bail out sick and disabled people first?
We’re going to see a lot more of this in the future. Universal Credit is very picky about 100% details or no payment. There is a sort of suspicion built in.
In the future? Sounds like it could be a Mad Max dystopia! Mad Max 1, that is, set in the 1970s, with multi-cylinder jap bikes and “NIGHTRIDER”! (who I always thought looked a bit like Cybil Fawlty). Seriously though, let’s face it the Tories have deliberately trashed the Welfare State & the whole country is riding to Hell in a shit cart.
Correction. It was ‘Toe Cutter’ who resembled Sybil Fawlty, not Nightrider. My bad. :/
Thanks, Trev, you’ve just given me an idea!
DWP telling people to go find work when they’re sick and disabled is like Basil Fawlty beating his broken-down car with the tree-branch! No matter how much you try to flog people with sanctions, benefit-stops, benefit-cuts, etc., if they’re ill, they’re ill. You can’t punish them into being well.
I was thinking similarlythis morningstood outside the Jobcentre watching people come & go, one guy shaking,others on walking sticks or crutches, all being forced to seek work. Ivebeen referred to attend a jobs fair this Thurs. Oh joy. 🙁
How will they know whether or not you attended the jobs fair?
Don’t want a job? Why go to the fair?
New Tory nightmare: it’s a fair, but you HAVE TO attend, even if you don’t want to, otherwise you will lose your money and DIE. I can hear the laughter of the evil clown…
People so terrified of getting a sanction that they turn up at the Jobcentre shaking like a leaf.
People still shaking when they leave the Jobcentre, after their scary confrontation with the evil clown. He says, “Meet me at the fair on Thursday, otherwise…YOU WILL DIE!!!!!!!!!”
It should be a horror film, titled “Nightmare at the Fair”.
Disabled people make it to the fair, but there are two steps up to the entrance. They just can’t propel the wheelchair up the two steps. Just inside the fair is the evil clown, watching them struggle and laughing at them. If they don’t make it up those two steps, they’ll be sanctioned for THREE YEARS!!!
Not according to the Gospel Of IDS, where the sick can be cured by the miracle of work.
IDS was on tv yesterday. Chukka Umuna mentioned the suffering of sick and disabled people, and IDS kind of laughed, like he thought it was funny.
Yep think we hit dystopia a while back. David Davis doesn’t seem to realise. Or isn’t in a position where he has to apply for PIP etc. Anyone who has to deal with the DWP knows that we hit nightmare scenarios a long time ago.
Do we have to make such a pig’s ear of the EU leaving process ? It’s gone beyond any dignity for the country now.
At the time of last year’s election, the well-to-do and the media thought it was just another referendum on Brexit. They seemed to think that nobody had any other issues to vote about. Luckily, the success of Jeremy Corbyn has led to a greater will to understand. I think it has dawned on them now that it wasn’t all about Brexit.
The mass media sold out the Tory view years ago. It used to be that the BBC did at least go through the motions of being impartial.
Now they might as well get their scripts from No.10
I disagree. Have you seen their coverage of the NHS crisis, homelessness, and sick and disability benefits?
It can’t be helped if many of the media elite support the current government, but I would say the BBC have been very good at representing all views.
If you want to see biased reporting, try reading the London Evening Standard (George Osborne’s mouthpiece).
Disabiklity assessments fiasco actually made news headlnes as well lastweek.
Yes but Alison, the BBC are generally so biased in their reporting. There was hardly any real coverage of the recent NHS march in London, compared with the importance of the event. Same with Brexit, they hold the Tory party line. On homelessness, disability issues, the brutal benefit cuts, where are the mass media ? Largely behind the government.
It is true that the BBC don’t cover protest marches, except for perhaps a fleeting reference. It makes me sad.
It seems that protests only get serious attention from the BBC if they become violent.
The BBC and the rest of the mass media have soft-pedalled all these issues for years. Austerity, homelessness, the dreadful treatment of the disabled,
Universal Credit, Brexit, the list is long.
8.30 tonight on BBC1: programme about people getting evicted in the private rented sector.
And yet recently I was taking to a DWP Work Coach, and she admitted to me, to my suprise, ( off the record ), that there are many disabled people who are so badly disabled that they will never work. And that the DWP staff can see this for themselves, as a matter of common-sense. Which is not exactly the official line.
It makes you wonder about the thought processes of those who write the official line.
I have talked to two Tories I know personally about this issue. When they wax lyrical about a world without sick/disability benefits, I ask them, “Where would people go? How would they survive? They MUST live on SOMETHING!” I have never, ever got a sensible answer. It makes me think that some people walk around with a hole in their head, somewhere between their ears, where the rest of us have a brain…
if the Tories had their way i’m sure it would be ‘the Finał Solution’ for those unable to work. Thats more or less what the Welfare Reforms amount to – a cull.
Yes, but these people I know actually show themselves to be very caring, generous and helpful to me personally. They’re not robots, they’re not evil and they certainly don’t believe in a Final Solution. They don’t want me to die – believe me, I have discussed that with them many times!
It’s not a calculated campaign of evil on their part. It’s like they simply don’t UNDERSTAND how their political views impact on real people in their real lives.
They are comfortably off, yet they worry about money and about how much tax they pay.
When I tease one of them about how his tax is paying for my rent and benefit, he says, “I don’t mind paying tax for you.”
They’re ordinary people, with families, jobs, cars. Ordinary lives.
They are passionate about equality for people of all sexual orientations. They are vehemently opposed to racism. They have many really positive qualities and views. Yet, when it comes to welfare, it’s like they JUST DON’T GET IT!!!
This is true Alison. There are many decent middle of the road people who tend to vote conservative. Particularly older people. But they are not all evil monsters. They genuinely are not very keen on some aspects of socialism. As is very much the case in America. But it is true that they often lack empathy and understanding of issues like welfare. Which they only see in negative terms, as promoting dependency. This is a well-known weakness in the conservative viewpoint. And the problem with the conservatives is that when they start being governed from the hard-right wing of the party, common-sense and compassion go out of the window. Hence IDS and Thatcher, Rees-Mogg etc.
That is very true.
I think Moggy is a little too far to the right lead even to the Conservative Party!
I wasn’t really meaning the ordinary Tory voters, but the ones at the top, people like Gideon Osborne , David Cameron, IDS, Theresa May etc. People vote Tory for different reasons, some to protect their own interests as wealthy individuals or business owners or land owners etc, some just out of a vague notion of Imperialism and Nationalism harking back to the days of the British Empire and looking through rose-tinted glasses at Britain of the 1930s, others are gullible, misinformed or Politically illiterate. The Tory leaders took a conscious decision to sacrifice as many poor people as it takes in order to prop up Capitalism and protect the Rich, regardless of how many would suffer or die in the process. To them we are expendable if we are not economically active, not making money for them and their mates. Anyone who can’t work for whatever reason, the single mums, the sick/disabled, the unemployed, the homeless, are all surplus to requirements, “useless eaters” to be disposed of. Remember that DPAC Report? 50,000 deaths between 2011 and 2015 (inc.) where the Coroner ruled that Welfare Reforms had played a part in the death. The Government took legal action and made DPAC take it down off their website. When Dennis Skinner had a go at the Tories over it in the Commons they roared with laughter in his face, especially IDS who was highly amused at the thought of all those people having died.
Trev, I have also noticed the laughter. Not among the Tories I know personally (their eyes just glaze over), but Tories on tv and in the House of Commons. They seem to think it’s funny that people are dying.
That just about sums up Tories for you! Not that Labour are much better as far as marginalised people are concerned. Where is the leadership, where is the dissemination of hope? The Labour Party seems to be running scared of panic headlines in the Tory press rather than engaging in principled attack on the Tory policies that oppress most of us. Why isn’t it coming back with an attack on the imbecile notion that Corbyn is a Marxist FFS?
They could emphasise the fact that in Scandinavian terms he would be regarded as perfectly mainstream, and only an idiot would accuse Scandinavian countries of being communist. What we are up against, and have been for as long as I can remember in the UK is the sheer ignorance of how good we could have it, if we just opened our eyes and saw how places like Scandinavian countries actually seem to have societies that work for the best interests of their citizens, and are far more egalitarian – not perfect, by a long chalk, but a darn sight better than we have it here in the UK.
We really do need to wake up and find out how ordinary people live their lives in other European countries, as I think we have so much to learn, and pretty much nothing to lose, as we’ve more or less lost everything already! We need to lean what it’s like to live in a decent society, where everyone is treated with a fundamental respect.
And when in the Labour Party going to commit to do something about Universal Credit ? A simple statement would do.
This is going to be the problem if Labour don’t ramp up the pressure on the Tories. They are not going to connect with the mainstream voter outside the party.
Corbyn’s laid-back style is the issue here.
Labour are stilling running scared of the ‘Welfare Party’ tag. It’s why we are not seeing any firm action on Universal Credit.
I find Jeremy Corbyn’s laid-back style to be one of his greatest strengths. If you compare it to Theresa May, you can see that he is far better than her in a television studio. His personality comes across. He has a good sense of humour and he can make a joke in the face of all the endless Corbyn-bashing far better than I can!
”Good evening Comrade Corbyn… The raven flies east towards the sunrise.”
And the troll awakes to a new day.
Do you smoke cigarettes ? I have some Russian ones here. They are very good. Please take one. Or would you prefer a cigar ?
Do not blow in a Bear’s ear – Ancient Czech Proverb
The wind is cold in Prague, and the little birds sleep in their nests. But soon it will be spring.
Lovely birdsong round here.
Don’t smoke. Consider your lungs.
I had a neighbour who smoked himself to death. He would spend all night coughing and spitting out the window. That’s no way to spend your final years.
I had a neighbour who drank himself to death, and i was the one who found him. Had other neighbours who were heroin addicts. Nightmare. Ive moved from there now.
Yep. Don’t smoke, don’t drink, don’t do drugs. Follow Mr Corbyn’s example. Plenty of fruit and veg and plenty of exercise.
Sorry to hear all this, Trev. It must have been upsetting to find your neighbour dead.
I wrote a letter to local newspaper in Herefordshire yesterday, thanking them for their excellent coverage of recent letters about the perils and pitfalls of ‘Universal Credit’. (I believe the inverted commas are very important on this matter.)
One of my statements in that letter is obviously borne out by the above: “It’s my view that institutionalised abuse of genuine benefit claimants has become the norm in the name of ‘welfare reform'”
Jeremy Corbyn is a bass player trying to be a frontman. That’s why the music is off-key. Labour are never going to get a hit like this.
You could go into politics yourself. Stand for Labour Leader. Show us all how it’s done.
Alan, if there was an election tomorrow it would be a Labour landslide. Anyone who claims Benefits, or who works for the Council, the NHS, in Education, for the Railways, anyone who has to use a foodbank, anyone working for Min. Wage, anyone hammered by Bedroom Tax, anyonein thevPolice force & Fire brigade, all the civil servants who Lost half their Pension, the WASPIs, and practically everyone in the North of England, is going to vote Labour, obviously.
Amen.
I think we need to have a Song For Corbyn Campaign. You know too boost up his image. Remember the great song from ’97 – The Only Way Is Up ?
You had middle-aged people dancing around like teenagers. Now that’s what we need.
What about the music from one of the James Bond Films ?
Like for example, From Russia With Love ?
Or get a more folksy feel to it. How about Blowin’ in the Wind – by Bob Dylan ?
You could film it on a windy day in the allotment ?
Tories blowing OUT the wind. They try to blame it on Labour, but nobody is fooled.
Still don’t understand the allotment-phobia… Love gardening. Friends ask me all about it. People take run-down places on council estates and turn them into beautiful community gardens. Big Society. So why are the Tories talking people down for gardening?
Once upon a time, rich people were proud of their gardens, too.
Or Never Say Never Again ?
From Islington, more like.
Not sure many people will buy the whole Russian thing. It’s always popular with opponents and largely ignored by fans.
Yes but Alison, this all goes to his judgement.
Along with some of his Irish contacts. Puts a lot of people off.
I don’t know. The media is always digging dirt on Jeremy Corbyn. It doesn’t seem to affect his chances.
From the latest media coverage, it seems that there was very little basis for the spy story anyway. The source for it was a bit of a nut.
It just reinforces our impression that some newspapers will find anything they can to taint Jeremy Corbyn. If we were to dance to their tune, we’d just be a pawn in their game.
OH JEREMY CORBYN…OH JEREMY CORBYN…
The deluded chant of Momentum. Corbyn can’t win.
People wanted a song. Seems we already have one.
Even now Corbyn is not really being taken seriously by the Conservatives. Their default attitude is amused contempt. Even with Theresa May, surrounded by critics on all sides, struggling with Brexit negotiations, Corbyn can’t break through.
And if he keeps bouncing harmlessly off the wall of Conservative contempt, Labour are going to lose the election. ‘He likes Czechs’ – For pity’s sake ! What can you say ?
What’s wrong with liking Czechs?
We who like Jeremy Corbyn will continue to like Jeremy Corbyn. Tory-leaning, obscenely-wealthy media barons will continue to spend their days publishing anything they can find to undermine him.
This world is full of people who love to make predictions. Very few of them ever get it right.
In my lifetime, I have learned to tune out a lot of nonsense.
Trev, that rather depends on whether someone is an MP and the Czech an agent for their former spy service.
This is another problem with Corbyn, poor judgement.
Corbyn “spy” allegations have been shown to be less fact and more fiction.
He met a proven spy, a career officer for the then Czech foreign intelligence service. Fact.
There are files on all of this from the spy involved. His evaluation of Corbyn. Details of their meetings. Fact. Even the spy’s expenses claims. Fact. Corbyn is a loose canon, and who knows what else is still to dug up from 30 years as a radical critic of his own party ?
All widely discredited allegations.
No, Corbyn is not a loose cannon. Nor is he a loose canon – he’d have to be ordained first!
If there were anything bad about Corbyn, the papers would have found it by now. They’ve already published everything true and they’re now resorting to gossip and nonsense.
Corbyn-bashers should stick to digging dirt in the garden.
This spy bullshit is just more dirty tricks smear campaign, MI5 are probably behind it, they tried the same with Harold Wilson. The Establishment will stop at nothing to try and prevent a Left wing government.
But it’s not bullshit Trev. Corbyn met a spy from a foreign intelligence service. He’s in the files in Prague. He had a codename, ‘Cob’ ! It all goes to his questionable judgement on this matter.
It IS nonsense, Andrew. Everyone knows it except you.
The story has undermined the credibility of the media (not that The Sun ever WAS credible) and sparked a widespread debate about the quality of reporting in the papers. It’s all over the TV!
This proves how easy it has become for the right-wing media to brainwash the right wing of the population. They’ll believe anything.
But the files exist on all this Alison. So does the ex-spy himself.
YES it IS bullshit.
http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2018/02/the-most-viral-tory-tweet-of-2018-so.html
Turned out to be bullshit (apologies all round?):
http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2018/02/the-most-viral-tory-tweet-of-2018-so.html
I’m not so sure MI5 has anything to do with it. I think The Sun is quite capable of coming up with the story on its own.
How was the jobs fair?
jobs fair was as crap as i expected. Was told there woupd be 40 employers there, rubbish, there were about 6 including the Police & Fire Brigade. There were two for Hospitality jobs, waiters/kitchen staff etc. and im already registered with one of them but have never had any reply or response from them. Another was an agency for Care work, requiring DBS. It was absolute shite. No one there from jobcentere taking names, didnt have to sign in or anything, so they wouldnt have known whether I’d attended or not. Anyway, at least I went & put it down on my UJM Activity (that they never bother read anyway).
Don’t the police require DBS clearance as well?
I suppose there’s no point in getting a stall at a jobs fair if the only people who will show up don’t want a job anyway and only came because they were made to by the Jobcentre.
People find work by trailing around shopping precincts looking for signs in windows. That’s how the employers advertise their jobs. It costs them nothing. They only use the internet for jobs in management.
The DWP never understood this.
If you want a gardening job, search “hort jobs” on the internet. (Sorry if I posted this twice.)
Just saw a very funny picture on the internet: USA Homeland Security stall at a jobs fair with a man asking for a job while wearing a T-shirt saying “TERRORIST” on the back.
Alison, MI5 do have ways & means of influencing the media. I have noticed their interference a few times in the past (which was very obvious) on other matters unrelated to party politics (i.e. Crop Circles & UFOs).
Crop circles are caused by foxes chasing one another in long grass.
As for UFOs, perhaps spies have been behind one or two odd things, but mostly it’s just hype and paranoia. The Americans mistook a lighthouse for a UFO. They found the remains of a foil weather balloon in the desert and convinced themselves it was alien material.
Foxes & lighthouses!Haha,i think we’ll have to agree to disagree on all that! :p
Trev, why would MI5 make a crop circle? What would be their motive?
I saw the lighthouse story on TV. Some Americans (spies or something) were working nights in a porticabin in a wood in East Anglia. They saw this bright light that kept coming and going. They were certain it was an extra-terrestrial being trying to communicate with them.
Years later, journalists returned to the scene of the intermittent bright light and found the lighthouse. Lighthouses are not very common in America, so the spooks would have had no idea what it was.
Actually Alison they are caused by human beings. I’m not sure why, is it some type of game ? I was watching last summer as a group of young humans flattened down a wheat field with pieces of wood. They made a large circle shape and then ran off again.
Humans making their own crop circle? I’m afraid I can’t explain that one! Maybe they think of themselves as the rural version of Banksy.
Still, I’ve seen your species frolicking in my garden, chasing one another round and round in a circle. Think of what that would do to a field of wheat!
Unless it was Theresa May running in fields of wheat…
Everyone knows they took the crashed UFO away, and then planted that useless balloon wreckage. Just a cover up for what is in Area 51.
Well Alison, I don’t want to elaborate too much on here as it is straying too far off topic and this isn’t the right place to discuss such things, but suffice to say I am a UFO witness myself and I know what I saw, and therefore I have studied this subject a lot over the years and come to my own conclusions. Put it this way, Margaret Thatcher once said “UFOs? Oh you can’t tell the people” (in response to being asked about the Rendlesham Forest/RAF Bentwaters incident in Dec. 1980.)
Maggie went mad in the end, Trev.
You’re right. We’ll have to agree to disagree on UFOs.
The Tories seem to worship Maggie. It gets a bit cult-like…
Yes, Rendlesham Forest is the one I was thinking of, with the lighthouse. Military personnel – I don’t know why I thought spies. There was a programme about it on Channel 5.
I don’t think we can go on like this much longer. Labour are on the high road to disaster. Corbyn must go.
He must go, and the sooner the better for the party. Frankly as a party member I’m so truly sick of all this. Years ago we had all of this with the Socialist Workers Party, Militant Tendency, even the actual Communist party.
Kinnock spent years getting them out, like pulling teeth, one by one.
Now in our local branch, it doesn’t matter how crap things are with Corbyn, we are all expected to support him no matter what.
People won’t say it but they are starting to get a bad feeling about this.
Personally, i will only vote for a Leftwing Labour, further left the better. Keep the Red Flag Flying!
It will take Progress to save Labour. There is no other way forward.
Progress. Infiltrated by Tories, by the looks of things. Already, it has a bad reputation. Good luck trying to influence anybody.
Rich donors paying £millions trying to convince us not to think what we would otherwise think. If it’s good for the wealthy donors, it’s bad for the rest of us!
We all had a vote. As a fellow party member, I voted for Corbyn. So did the majority of the rest of our party. So Corbyn is our leader. Democracy works that way.
I don’t take too kindly to being written off as the wrong sort of party member. I have never done anything violent in the name of politics and I don’t intend to. So why are you calling me militant? Do you think that’s fair? I’m not a bad tooth and I don’t think I need to be pulled out. Imagine saying these sorts of things about people in your own party!
We all belong to the same party. We all pay our membership fees. We all believe that a Labour government would be a better thing for our country. We do disagree on how to achieve that, as well as what to do about Europe. So we had a vote. Don’t you think that’s fair?
The Blairites have been in charge for a while. Now it’s the turn of someone on the left of the party.
Please note I have been a member of the Labour Party since 2013. I tried to spread good things about Ed Miliband, but I found people were not very keen on him. Jeremy Corbyn seems to be far more popular with other people. I am also pleased that he has the courage to speak out about issues like housing and welfare, in spite of the risk of being accused of supporting so-called “shirkers”.
As for Neil Kinnock, I was tiny when he was Labour Leader. I remember seeing him on TV, shouting at Mrs Thatcher. In those days, the cameras only faced Mrs Thatcher, so I only saw the back of his bald head. My dad was very keen on him.
You’re right Dave. It’s like watching all your friends take up Scientology. And they just won’t see it. What can you do ?
It’s not Scientology, just that there are millions of people in this country who Don’t want a Tory-lite version of Labour, and now with Corbyn & McDonnel finally feel that they can vote fo ra real Labour party again that is Socialisth& not trying to emulate the Tories. Why Can’t you see that?
It’s the same old “cult” nonsense. Anyone who disagrees with them must be stupid/brainwashed/dangerous.
I fondly remember a time when a difference of opinion was considered a healthy debate. Sadly, it’s not like that any more.
When the people vote for anything the powerful don’t like, the Russians always get blamed for it.
I’m not recommending Donald Trump, but look at how the American elite have become obsessed with the influence the Russians may have had over their election, despite the fact that very few people are going to listen to the Russians any more than they’re going to listen to their fellow Americans telling them not to vote Trump.
The mainstreamers don’t realise how noisy they are. We are drowning in anti-Corbyn and anti-Trump – just look at this forum! When people get told too often not to do something, it can make them even more inclined to go ahead and do it. It’s the natural, innate resistance to brainwashing that we have within us.
At one point, some people in the media tried to blame the Brexit vote on Russian propaganda. (“I’ve failed to notice all the foreigners taking our jobs, but oh wow I’d better vote leave because of some obscure nonsense on the internet.” I mean REALLY???) Needlessly to say, it sounded so ridiculous that nobody took it seriously and the story died out very quickly.
Trev, all the sensible people have joined Progress. Where we discuss real politics for the real world.
Progress? Ha-ha-ha!
Here we go again. The only people who are “sensible” are those you agree with.
Enjoy Progress, but remember there’s a world of common sense out here and it doesn’t always agree with you.
Alison, for goodness sake, give up Corbyn, join Progress. Come back to the real Labour Party.
Tom, for goodness sake, give up Progress, join Momentum. Come back to the real Labour Party.
David, “Politics for the real world”? If by that you mean the Hard-Right neo-liberalism that has masqueraded as Centrism for 40+ years and made a select elite very wealthy indeed whilst shafting the rest of us, then no I don’t think the “real world” needs any more of that thanks very much.
Progress: 3,000 members v. Momentum: 35,000 members
= Momentum is TWELVE TIMES the size of Progress!
From Russia with love, I fly to you
Much wiser since my goodbye to you
I’ve travelled the world to learn
I must return
From Russia with love
Why are some people blaming their Local Councils for cuts to services & increases to Council Tax, things like bins not getting emptied, library closures, pot holes in the roads etc. ? It’s not the Councils fault, It’s the Tories in central Government who have cut the funding for our services! Blame them! Get the Tory scumbags OUT!!!
Only a centre-left Labour government is likely to be elected. Once you drift leftwards into the land of neo-communism you have left most middle of the road British voters behind.
Centre Left maybe, that’s what Corbyn is, but many of us will never vote for the sort of Tory-lite sell-out that Miliband was offering.
With you on that Trev. Turns my stomach to think of Labour voting for the welfare reforms under Miliband’s orders. And where was he or Harman for that matter when it came to Universal Credit ?
Yep, “Red Ed” turned out to be not-so-Red after all.
I never thought he was red after all. David and Ed Miliband seemed to be offering pretty much the same thing. I always thought the “differences” between them were more of an attempt to cover up how similar they were. There was no real alternative to Blairism on offer at the time.
It seems that many people on this forum want to go back to the days of the Blairite consensus.
Peter,
Corbyn is only “neo-Communist” if you listen to the smear campaign of the Rightwing press, like Osborne’s Far-Right rag the Evening Standard. But actually he is fairly moderate. It all depends what you mean by Centrist? If you mean the Hard-Right neo-liberalism that has masqueraded as Centrism for the past 40 years then no we don’t want anymore of that, that’s what got us into this mess, but if you take an unprejudiced look at what Corbyn is offering it is really sensible moderate ‘true Centrism’, which even I can accept. Read this article and learn what I mean:
http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2017/07/centrism-is-bust.html
Trev, great article!
I’ve found the word for the ones who think everybody who disagrees with them is stupid/brainwashed/dangerous: NEO-LIBERALS.
It was interesting they mentioned Gary Lineaker because it’s very often celebrities who define themselves as “ordinary people” just wanting a bit of “centre-ground” politics, while the rest of us can see they have long departed from the ranks of ordinary people and now they are clearly SUPER-rich, living in ivory towers, living vastly different lives from the rest of us.
Yes, it’s all very well for millionaire celebs to be ‘middle-of-the-road’, they are comfortably removed from the Class struggle,t
Do you know what the problem is with the Labour Party ? As Elvis Presley said:
‘We’re caught in a trap
I can’t walk out
Because I love you too much, baby
Why can’t you see
What you’re doing to me
When you don’t believe a word I say?
We can’t go on together
With suspicious minds (suspicious minds)
And we can’t build our dreams
On suspicious minds’
I see the Archbishop Of Canterbury has spoken against people who have second homes ? But surely he lives in a palace ?
‘ Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. 23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful.,
The Archbishop of Canterbury has been sharing his accommodation with refugees and his palace doubles up as a venue for Christian meetings, conferences, study, conventions, etc.
Jesus Christ said, “Judge not, lest ye be judged.”
And also: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” Mark 10 v25
Also, Lambeth Palace houses a huge library and two religious communities.
https://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/about-lambeth-palace
From the Guido Fawkes blog, see what I mean about Corbyn ?
The Labour Party and Momentum will join forces with the Communist Party of Britain at a “cooperation” meeting next month. The CPB are the Marxist-Leninist wing of Britain’s communist movement. They are holding a “fraternal” conference where they will team up with Corbynistas to plot joint aims and activities. Momentum officer Michael Calderbank will speak at the meeting entitled: “Working With Labour for a Socialist Future”. Adverts for the event show two red hands grasping each other, one emblazoned with the Labour Party’s red rose logo, the other with the communist hammer and sickle…
Guido Fawkes? LOL. Do me a favour. Just more Rightwing hysteria from Conservative propagandist Paul Staines. You need to start getting your information from a more reputable source.
and, i might add, so what? If Corbyn wants to reunite all the disparate Leftwing groups back onboard with the Labour party then that seems perfectly reasonable to me. It may have escaped your notice but The Labour party is a Leftwing organization. You sound like some 1950s McCarthyist desperately looking for the “Red under thebd” (phone crashed again!) GRrrre..”bed”…
Yeah. So what? We’ll see if anybody gets put off by these stories. Probably not. 35,000 members of Momentum can’t be wrong.
I knew Corbyn was bright red under the pinko disguise.
Oh, yes they can. I can’t think of anything more likely to sink Labour at the next election than the fact that they have gone back to these fellow-travellers.
But a few outliers in Progress, funded by millionaires, happen to be right? Unlikely.
Are you or have you ever been a member of The Communist Party ?
Who me? No.Not that i have much against them, just thatt. they are atheists & I’m not. Other than that i agree with their views, Nationalization & equal wealth, sounds great, who could possiblynot like that?
What organisations are you a member of, Thomas?
Communists. Just what the Labour Party doesn’t want. Here we go again, the far left leading on to disaster. Will they ever learn ?
I do wish the church would be more prominent in condemning such things as the rise in homelessness. Also the whole Universal Credit roll-out.
The Archbishop should be taking a stronger lead in this.
It is we in Progress who know that we hold the future of the Labour Party in our hands. The real party that is, not some sort of unelectable neo-communist hybrid.
We are the centre of the party, and when all this Corbynism has blown over, we will still be there giving our support to the Labour Party.
*Yawn*
post-Blairism has nothing to offer.
Ha-ha-ha. Don’t think so.